My daughter has been a girl scout for 4 years, and she loves it. The Girl Scouts organization recognizes more than one religion, and more than one possible expression of human sexuality, and works hard to be an inclusive and caring place for girls to grow up and find themselves. Training to be a leader involves acknowledging that your girls will come from a wide variety of backgrounds and learning how to best use the official materials to fit your troop. I can’t tell you how ecstatic I was when I discovered that we queer godless folk (well, technically, I’m over-godded, but I can’t imagine certain Christians would care about that distinction) would be embraced and accepted, and not just in an under-the-table-we-know-you-exist-but-it-would-look-bad-to-make-it-official kind of way.
My son has been watching all this fun girl scouting, and even attending some events and earning patches. He thinks it’s a wonderful idea. He wanted to *be* a girl scout…until he heard about the Boy Scouts.
Ugh. Ugh ugh.
Let me quote the official Boy Scouts National Council Legal Issues FAQ:
Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?
A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of “duty to God” before duty to country, others, and self.
I thought that, technically, I’m ok, even if my god is a bit hornier than theirs, literally and figuratively, and even if there is this goddess chick hanging out with him…I mean, technically, I definitely believe in God..a lot of them, in fact.
But then it goes on:
Q. What religions are involved with Scouting?
A. Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any “duty to God” material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies.
Ok, wow. So they’re really, really inclusive… you just have to be Christian. Yeah, I know that we pagans are just the weirdos in the back, but what about considering Hinduism? Islam? Judaism? Buddhism? (Here’s a rundown on world religions by number of adherents – we made it to #19, beating out the Scientologists! Whoo hoo – go Pagans!)
Well…drat. But then I thought, ok, I could just tell him to keep quiet about Beltane and Lammas, as long as it isn’t true that they’re homophobes….
Q. Don’t Boy Scouts discriminate against gays and atheists?
A. Boy Scouts of America is one of the most diverse youth groups in the country, serving boys of every ethnicity, religion, and economic circumstance and having programs for older teens of both sexes. That Boy Scouts also has traditional values, like requiring youth to do their “duty to God” and be “morally straight” is nothing to be ashamed of and should not be controversial. No court case has ever held that Boy Scouts discriminates unlawfully, and it is unfortunate here that anyone would characterized Boy Scouts’ constitutionally protected right to hold traditional values as “discriminatory.” That is just name-calling.
Wow. Name-calling? Now I feel bad about what I said about Christianity not being a lot of different religions. And the thing about homophobia. Gosh, guys, I’m really sorry…
Q. May an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual be a volunteer Scout leader?
A. No. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership organization; leadership in Boy Scouting is a privilege and not a right. Boy Scouts believes that homosexual conduct is not compatible with the aims and purposes of Scouting and that a known or avowed homosexual does not present a desirable role model for the youth in the Scouting program. Boy Scouts will continue to select only those who meet Boy Scout standards and qualifications for membership.
At this point I was trying to work out if I’m known or avowed…
Q. What does “known or avowed” mean?
A. “Known” is what is known about you. “Avowed” is what you say about yourself. “Known” focuses on cases where someone has engaged in conduct in the community which makes it clear that he or she engages in homosexual conduct. The major cases, however, have been those in which open or “avowed” homosexuals have come forward to test the policy.
Oh, heh. Both. I am known and avowed. And, yeah, I would probably get all uppity and expect equal rights or something.
Q. Is Boy Scouts implying that homosexuals do not have good moral or emotional character? What about other types of sexual immorality?
A. Boy Scouts regards homosexual conduct as not morally straight as required in the Scout Oath. Morally straight is a broad term which includes all types of moral behavior. There are many persons who may be unsuitable role models of the Oath and Law for adolescent boys.
Oh, damn. This is not looking good for me. I wonder if they might think “poly” means “having a lot of friends.”
So, sadly, I’m left with a quandary. My friends and family are split to each side, the of-course-he-should-join-it’s-a-great-experience side and the omg-you-have-to-be-kidding-they’re-evil side. There are lessons to be learned by taking either side. We live in a very liberal area, so I know the troop at our school believes in inclusion (as long as you don’t get too uppity…that does seem to be a trend.) But I cringe at the idea that my son might learn even a little of the bigotry, and that we would be supporting an organization I dislike so intensely. The idea of change from the inside is very attractive, but also makes me a little sick. My brain just keeps crabbing the choice over and over and over. (Crabbing is the act of trying to flip an idea over in your head to gain insight – so named, by me, for the way my cats responded to a whole dead crab when I was little. They could smell the good food, but they couldn’t figure a way in, so they flipped it and flipped it and flipped it, hoping that a solution for getting in through the hard shell will magically appear.)
I remember wondering about this very decision about a week after my son was born, and I had hoped the decision would get easier, but it hasn’t. If you have any suggestions, please leave them here – I could really use a crab fork and a hammer right about now.
Well,
You have to realize that it is similar to any private organization Christian, Atheist or somewhere in between. They only want to keep the organization as true to those who started it. That’s why they keep all of their oaths in use so that it not be diluted as the years go by and to continue to have a “group” of like-minded boys/men to follow these traditions for as long as possible.
Now with that said..
My son was a boyscout. My son is gay. The personal lifestyles of the men & boys were never an issue in the Boy Scouts, They had comradery, fun, learned useful things such as survival tips and more.
If your son wants to be a boy scout, trust me the oaths are not going to negatively affect him. Think of all the oaths men of ALL religions, sexual orientations & cultures take and break … they are all human and flawed as such. So don’t take it so serious and let him join the fun and seek the positive out of it.. That’s what we did and he made great friends, and learned a lot. But more than anything had FUN.
I did not have a son, so this specific question is not one I have to ponder for myself. I would find another organization if it were my decision to make. They are very clear about drawing lines around their organization. That’s not one I’d try to change from within, I don’t think. I would explain to my child why joining such an organization is goes against our morals. And it sucks when a kid’s friends are involved in something you won’t allow them to do, but that happens on all kinds of levels anyway.
good luck, sweetheart.. and I thought you went pretty light on them. We all know you can rant much harder and leave marks
I agree with what MaryJane had to say. However, if you’re still not comfortable with the Boy Scouts, perhaps you might want to consider Camp Fire. It’s for boys and girls and is very inclusive. I was in Camp Fire as a child and my oldest daughter was in CF a couple of years ago. Lots of fun and in our group, there was no focus on religious beliefs or sexual orientation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Fire_USA There is a lot of good info here about Camp Fire. No oath is taken, the focus is on service to others. The first part of the Camp Fire “law” says “Worship God” but I believe that every group is able to include or remove this part of the law if they choose. The founder of CF says about the law: “The power of the law is within you. It is not law that other people can demand you obey; that is, it is not law from without — it is law from the heart. It commands only those who seek to follow. It is opportunity, not obligation. It is an open road leading to the beautiful country where you live, rather than chains which would bind or limit your freedom.”
Good luck in your search for a fun, inclusive group for your son to join.
I am actually having a similer issue. My son is 7 and his cousin is in the Botscouts. I’m sure that pretty soon my son will be asking to be in them as well.
I have a big issue with this as I don’t agree with just about everything that they stand for. Except for the pyromania part of it.
We shall see what happens….
I am struggling with the same thing. I loath the Boy Scouts and their so called morality but know my son would love the activities scouting has to offer.
Maybe we should organize our own scouting group!
As a past member of the girl scouts and having been kicked out twice (yes, twice) due to “un-girl scout like attitude” (read – wanted to do cool boy stuff not baking crap) and “inapropriate behaviors becoming a young lady” (read – wanted one of my fellow girls scouts and couldn’t resist googly eyed stares) I am glad to hear that they have changed to a more accepting attitude! Or at least they have in your area lol.
The only thing I would suggest is, if your son is old enough to understand (not sure of his age), explain it to him. Let him try it out. If he likes it and no issues arise, let him stay. Nothing gets damaged by trying something new and it will ease your “what if” scenarios by actually experiencing what will happen. I understand the urge to protect your children from the big bad ugly until they are 38
but life throws these things at you when they do for a reason.
oh…and Woo Hoo! Go Pagans! *holds up her big foam finger* Always good to hear when my team gets another score!! If they ask if you believe in god just don’t say which one
and if they ask what denomination? I always say I’m a non-denominational pagan, so just leave pagan off the end and your golden!
Tennis anyone?
You might want to check out an alternative option….
http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html
umm, idk about everything everybody else has said on here about Boy Scouts. I lived & breathed boyscouts from the time i was 8 through 14. I earned my Eagle Scout & got “Slick Willy’s” signature on the certificate; I do tend to have more of a ‘socially acceptable’ disposition in public gatherings, but I feel guilty when I offend someone. always have. I have my own belief structure that most people find rude & unacceptable, but nobody ever knew throughout the 6-7yrs of scouting. i guess the big thing is, do you want your child somewhere that is a known safe place on the weekends; or off rampaging the streets & countryside of his own volition. no… that was boy scouts too… send him and let him decide if the bastards are worth dealing with. laters.